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  • 1.  Comments requested: Proposed CC:DA response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1

    Posted Aug 29, 2024 11:28 AM
    Edited by Kathryn Glennan Aug 29, 2024 08:19 PM
      |   view attached

    Colleagues-

    The CC:DA Task Force to Prepare the ALA Response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1 has completed their work -- before their deadline! Please join me in thanking them for their thoughtful and thorough work. 

    I have attached their response here. It is now time for the rest of us to review the latest version of the RSC paper and the proposed response.  If you have any additional comments or suggestions, please post them here before September 30. As usual, there is a short turn-around time and NARDAC would like the CC:DA response by October 1.

    Kathy



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    Kathy Glennan
    Chair, CC:DA
    Director, Cataloging & Metadata Services
    University of Maryland Libraries
    she/her/hers
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    Attachment(s)

    docx
    RSC Working Extent Response.docx   22 KB 1 version


  • 2.  RE: Comments requested: Proposed CC:DA response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1

    Posted 16 days ago

    Thank you to the Task Force in preparing the thorough response!!

    I concur with the Task Force's responses. I asked colleagues to comment, and the primary response is that the "Impact of proposed changes on cataloguers" section is difficult for many to fully grasp or imagine. I admit I'm in the same boat.

    However, I'm also fortunate to work with Crystal Yragui, who was on the Task Force. She added that the impact of the proposed changes on catalogers should be small, since official RDA hasn't been fully implemented yet and the changes primarily concern the Toolkit and the ways extent can be recorded using linked data properties.



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    Erin Grant
    Director, Cataloging and Metadata Services
    University of Washington
    She/Her/Hers
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Comments requested: Proposed CC:DA response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1

    Posted 15 days ago

    I am passing along the comments from ARLIS CAC. Thank you!

    GENERAL COMMENTS:

    We second the CC:DA Task Force's acknowledgment of the tremendous work that went into producing RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1. We agree that the new subelements would facilitate machine-processing of quantitative data.  We welcome the clearer distinction between carrier and content aspects of extent that the new subelements will enable, and the enhanced capacity to record for all formats extent of embodied content as well as physical extent, something that will surely benefit users.

    We agree that additional examples would lead to better understanding of the new subelements proposed for extent. It would be especially helpful to have more examples in sections 4  (Manifestation: extent of embodied content), 5 (Manifestation: extent of aggregated unit),  and 9 (Expression: extent of expression), as this is uncharted territory.

    COMMENTS ON SPECIFIC POINTS:

    4: Manifestation of embodied content

    We approve of the CC:DA Task Force's revision of section 4  (RSC_ExtentWG_CEY4.ManifestationRevisionSuggestion.doc). The reordering of the recommendations and the addition of subheadings make it easier to follow the discussion of this new element.

    5.2  Manifestation: extent of aggregated unit. Recommendation with options

    New value vocabulary:

    We agree that a new value vocabulary is needed for Extent of Aggregated Content.  Although the CC:DA recommends expanding the RDA Content Type value vocabulary as the basis for the new vocabulary, we would prefer terms that are on a more specific level. The  RDA Content Type value vocabulary more or less mirrors the values in the MARC leader/06, which are very general.  It is hard to imagine users helped by knowing how many still images, or texts, or three-dimensional objects are in a manifestation. We would prefer starting with something more akin to the ISBDM Extent of Aggregated Content value vocabulary, which has more specific terms, such as photograph, drawing, view, etc., but allowing for use of broader terms when listing all the different types is not feasible.   Whatever terms are included in the new vocabulary would of course need to be reviewed by the general and specialist cataloging communities (we gather that many of the music terms need replacement or refinement).

    Extent of textual works

    Graphic catalogers record extent for still images in terms of the number of images rather than the number of pages, e.g. 1 drawing or 2 drawings. When the number of images is the only extent recorded, it is understood that each drawing is on a separate sheet. If not, the number of physical units is specified, e.g. 2 drawings on 1 sheet, or 65 drawings in 1 volume.  But quantifying textual manifestations in terms of embodied content is a new departure: in the past, only the extent of unitary structure and the extent of unit (to use the new names proposed for this information) were recorded for a textual manifestation. We assume that the new subelements can be used for texts as well as other formats. It would be good to have some examples of this,  e.g., 1 novel, 18 short stories, 65 poems. We  also wonder how one would quantify non-fiction. Would one simply record extent as "1 text"? If it is a book of reproductions of the paintings of Cezanne, with brief entries, how (if at all) would you quantify the aggregated texts and images?

    13.3: Photographic print vs. photograph

    We recommend that "photograph" rather than "photographic print" be used as a value for the Extent of Unitary Structure. The Art & Architecture Thesaurus defines "photographic prints" as "Opaque photographs, usually positive (i.e., reproducing appearances without tonal reversal, otherwise use "negative prints"), usually on paper, and generally, but not always, printed from a negative"  (http://vocab.getty.edu/page/aat/300127104). The term "photographic print" would not apply to many other types of photographs, such as cased photographs (e.g. daguerreotypes, ambrotypes, tintypes), slides and transparencies, and negatives. (See the AAT hierarchical display for Photographs by form (linked to from http://vocab.getty.edu/page/aat/300127008)).  It would be better to use the broader term "photograph" for both Extent of Unitary Structure as well as for Extent of Aggregated Content. Finer distinctions between different types of photographs can be made as more specialized terms are added to the vocabularies.



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    Katelyn Borbely
    Technical Services Librarian
    College for Creative Studies
    She/Her/Hers
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Comments requested: Proposed CC:DA response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1

    Posted 14 days ago
    Edited by Michael Bradford 14 days ago

    The American Theological Library Association (Atla) Cataloging Community agree with the Task Force's assessment and acknowledgement of the work that went into producing RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1. We agree with the changes that were recommended by the Task Force and the need for additional examples for clarity.

    As currently written, not taking into account the Task Force's work, Atla would not support the recommendations made in the paper.



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    Michael Bradford
    Atla Liaison to CC:DA and Voting Member

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Comments requested: Proposed CC:DA response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1

    Posted 13 days ago

    Thank you Task Force! I will admit that I did not read the proposal in depth, but I do appreciate the attempt to separate content and carrier. Specifically, the use of the term "atlas" as part of the extent of a resource, e.g. "1 atlas" has caused confusion for me and others for years so I think using "atlas" as a value for Work: category of work is where the term belongs. I am also personally pleased that it is recommended that the term "leaf" and its definition remain in the glossary. As Kathy may remember from our 2012 meeting in Chicago, I had to explain the difference with props at the meeting because there was no definition for leaf back then.



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    Kate James (she/her/hers)
    OCLC · Program Coordinator- Metadata Engagement, Global Product Management
    6565 Kilgour Place, Dublin, Ohio, 43017 United States
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Comments requested: Proposed CC:DA response to RSC/ExtentWG/2024/1

    Posted 13 days ago
    Edited by Jessica Grzegorski 13 days ago

    Apologies for responding a little late, but I'll add a few more observations here in case it's useful. Generally, I agree with the recommendations of the Task Force, and thank all members of the Task Force and the Extent Working Group for their excellent work!

    • Recommendation 3.4:  Move Manifestation: dimensions to become an element subtype of Manifestation: extent of unit. Update the instructions to reflect the focus on structured descriptions for two to three dimensions.

    This recommendation warrants further discussion or clarification. Bifurcating instructions for physical measurements (i.e., most single dimensions covered by Manifestation: extent of unit, while other dimensions covered by Manifestation: dimensions) could lead to unnecessary confusion. Are there reasons why single dimensions could not be covered by the newly defined Manifestation: dimensions?

    • Recommendation 7.2: Add a new manifestation statement element: Manifestation: manifestation numbering of extent statement.

    I am concerned that this element blends numbering as it presents itself on the manifestation with supplied information (e.g., recording numbering and supplying the term pages). Perhaps an easier method for recording numbering in this way may be through condition options in Manifestation: extent of embodied content that reference particular transcription guidelines?

    • Recommendation 7.3: Add a new set of RDA transcription guidelines "Guidelines on transcription of numbering of extent." The guidelines will be derived from the current instructions in Manifestation: extent of manifestation related to transcribing the numbering of sequences of pages, leaves, etc.

    In principle, I agree, but with reservations.  RDA transcription guidelines currently apply to all "unstructured descriptions of manifestation elements and elements of other RDA entities where the option to use transcription guidelines is specified" (see Guidelines on normalized transcription).  It seems unusual to create separate transcription guidelines for one element. Could the existing guidelines on Numbering be expanded to accommodate the numbering scenarios mentioned in the discussion paper?

    • Recommendation 13.3: Add the new term photographic print to the Extent of Unitary Structure value vocabulary and add the term photograph to the Extent of Aggregated Content value vocabulary. The use of the term photograph in Illustrative Content will require a future decision for that value vocabulary for the kinds of expressions embodied in augmentation aggregates.

    I strongly agree with the ARLIS CAC on this recommendation.  The term photographic print excludes photographic negatives. Either the broader term photograph should be retained with a revised definition covering both prints and negatives, or a term covering negatives should be added to the vocabulary.  The current and proposed definitions are also not entirely correct. Photographs are often made with a lens and camera, but not always; the only requirement is the use of light- or radiation-sensitive materials. Photograms are a good example of photographic prints made without a lens. Some "alternative process" photographic prints, such as cyanotypes and brownprints, may also be photograms made without a lens.


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    Jessica Grzegorski
    Rare Materials Metadata Librarian
    Northwestern University Libraries
    She/Her/Hers
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    Original Message