RDA-L

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation.

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me.

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation.

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me.

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation.

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me.

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Yuji,

The Data Provenance instructions are used for recording the source of a piece of metadata.  In this case, the instructions you cite would mean recording in a 500 note something like, "Title from title page" or "Title from series title page."  Dana wasn't asking how to record the provenance of the title; they were asking _which_ title to record and whether the two pages counted as a single title page spread.  The Data Provenance instructions do not answer that. question.

Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Yuji,

The Data Provenance instructions are used for recording the source of a piece of metadata.  In this case, the instructions you cite would mean recording in a 500 note something like, "Title from title page" or "Title from series title page."  Dana wasn't asking how to record the provenance of the title; they were asking _which_ title to record and whether the two pages counted as a single title page spread.  The Data Provenance instructions do not answer that. question.

Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

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Hi Stephen, 

Yes, I realize that, but I don't think it has been entirely common to put a parallel title from a page that is more like a series title page than the primary title page, in the 245. That was my confusion, because I hadn't been seeing other catalogers do that much with the type of work I described in my original message. Either the parallel Latin title was ignored, or it was put in a 246, it generally didn't get put in the 245. In AACR2, I think this was because of the LCRI stating that pages that repeat everything aren't considered to constitute a spread of title page data, but I'm not sure why catalogers opted to ignore the parallel Latin title on the series title page with the original RDA, because as you note, 2.3.3 does state that a parallel title should be recorded, and that it can come from any source within the manifestation. Although the original RDA did not state where to record the parallel title, and it seems that catalogers considered the page facing the title page to be more of a series title page than a title page spread over two, facing pages.

I'm still not convinced that in this situation the series title page should be considered as a component part of a two-page title page, but if this is how catalogers will be interpreting the Official RDA I can put the parallel title in the 245 as well, it just makes for a long 245, especially with the parallel statements of responsibility included. But single title pages often include series information also, so I suppose the presence of series title info. on a page facing the title page doesn't have to exclude the data on that page from appearing in the 245, given that RDA just tells us what information can be included but doesn't dictate where it should be recorded.

Thanks again for your help,

Dana

Putting a parallel title into the 245 is not new at all--it goes back to AACR2, and probably to AACR.  In AACR2, it was covered in 2.1D.  In original RDA Toolkit, it was covered in 2.3.3.

Thank you both Stephen and Timothy, so much for your responses. This helps a lot. 

I did see that other condition Stephen, and was confused by it because I missed the "or" in the sentence,  so  I just ignored that condition! After a while with Official RDA my eyes go blurry, and it helps to have a second pair of eyes point out to me what I missed in the text.

Thank you, Timothy, for the links to the sections of Official RDA. Under the original RDA, I was seeing, and was, myself, skipping the Latin (or Greek) title in the 245 and entering the data in a 246 1_ $iLatin title from series title page:$a ..., but I just had two books in the series I mention in my previous message, that had both titles in the 245 in OCLC master records, and I was wondering if that was something new that was specifically spelled out in Official RDA. I have to say I'm not a fan of the wishy-washiness of Official RDA, and that so much is left to "cataloger's judgment", I think this makes training for new cataloger's more difficult, because they don't have a lot of cataloging experience to draw on. 

Again, thank you both for having the patience to wade through my long message and for providing such useful and detailed responses.

-Dana

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian

Historical Studies-Social Science Library

Institute for Advanced Study

Princeton, NJ 08540

I catalog a lot of books that contain a work in either Latin or Greek, and also translated in to either English or a Western European language. These are often in series, so in addition to the title page (page on right hand side) in the translated language, there is also a series title page facing the title page which will repeat the title and statement of responsibility (and sometimes the publisher) in Latin or Greek. The series title for these books is often in Latin (or Greek), so I believe this is why the series title page often also repeats the title in the original Latin or Greek.

AACR2 and RDA talked about title page data being on facing or successive pages being able to collectively constitute a title page, but I can't seem to find anything similar in 3R. Whereas in the original toolkit, the glossary definition for title page discussed facing pages, the glossary definition for title page in 3R does not: A source of information in a manifestation that is a page of a volume that contains information about title proper, statement of responsibility, publication, or other aspect of the manifestation. <o:p></o:p>

For my particular situation, I can only find under Title proper  "Title of manifestation in two or more languages or scripts" the condition "A value of a title appears in two or more languages in sources of information", which gives the condition option: "Record a value in the language or script of the main expression that is embodied by a manifestation." The LC/PCC Policy Statement states: "LC/PCC practice: IF: the content of the resource is written, spoken, or sung and the source of information for a title proper has a title in more than one language or script, THEN: apply the option."

This seems to not apply to a book which contains the entirety of a work in more than one language, both languages (i.e., expressions) are embodied in the manifestation. To me, the condition option makes it sound like it is applying mainly to situations where there's one predominant language in the manifestation. I suppose though, that it could also be read in a way that there could be multiple languages or expressions in the manifestation, and thus the title can be recorded in more than one language, but it's unclear to me. <o:p></o:p>

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In my situation, in AACR2 and RDA, catalogers would often only record the title on the right-hand side, and not the record the title on the series title page in the 245. Sometimes catalogers would put the Latin or Greek title in a 246 instead. I'm currently cataloging a book where catalogers have recorded both titles in the 245, but in reverse order. My understanding from both AACR2 and RDA is that the title page is the page on the right hand side (which would be the recto side of an individual page), and the page on the left hand side (which would be the verso side of an individual page), is not the title page, but I don't think that that was explicitly stated in either. So, as there seems to be confusion among catalogers, I would like to clarify, when there are two facing title pages, is the primary title page the one on the right or the left? My book contains Galen's Definitiones medicae in Greek and German. The title page on the left hand side contains the name of the series Corpus medicorum Graecorum, and the title, statements of responsibility and publishing data in Latin, the title page on the right hand side contains the title, statements of responsibility and publishing information in German. There's one master record in OCLC which has the German title first in the 245 and the Latin second (# 1378736652), and one which has the Latin title first and the German second (# 1350617191).

Can someone please clarify which title page is primary, the one on the left or the right, and am I misinterpreting the condition above for "A value of title appears in two or more languages in sources of information." It seems to me to be applying to a situation where a title page may have a title in more than one language, but the manifestation only contains one expression. Does this also apply to situations where there are two titles on the title page, and the manifestation contains the work in two languages? And is this condition applying to a manifestation with a spread of title page data among two pages, or to a manifestation with a single title page? (It says "A value of title appears in two or more sources of information", so I guess it applies to a spread of title page data, but I wish that was more clear). It seems odd to me that if a single title page contains a title in two languages that you would not record one of the titles if the manifestation only contains the work in one language. But I'm also unclear under 3R if I need to record the title on the series title page (the left hand title page), as catalogers most often would not do this in practice under AACR2 (most likely because of LCRI 2.0B1), or under the original RDA.  Does 3R discuss a spread of title page data among two pages anywhere? If so, where? And does it list any limitations like LCRI 2.0B1: "2.0B1.  Chief source of information<o:p></o:p>

The last sentence of rule 2.0B1 allows the cataloger to treat as a single chief source successive leaves or pages.  The intent of this provision is not to combine separate title pages, however.  Separate title pages usually repeat everything.  The intent is for a spread of single title page data.  It is true that in such a spread some elements may be repeated (as the provision recognizes).  A tip-off that this provision is applicable is either no repetition or a partial repetition.  Conversely, complete repetition is a tip-off of non-applicability"?<o:p></o:p>

I hope this was not too confusing to follow.

Thanks very much for any guidance you can give me.

Dana Van Meter
Cataloging Librarian<o:p></o:p>

Historical Studies-Social Science Library<o:p></o:p>

Institute for Advanced Study<o:p></o:p>

Princeton, NJ 08540<o:p></o:p>

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