Hi everyone,
Thanks for yet another lively Journal Club today, and a special thanks to Leyla for leading the discussion! The chat transcript from today's Zoom meeting is pasted below.
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this form to suggest potential journal club papers and topics. In December, we'll be hosting a tool show-and-tell if there are sufficient volunteers...to volunteer please fill out
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Thank you!
Sarah
13:00:02 From Ameet Doshi (he/his), Stokes Library to Everyone:
70 degrees and sunny in NJ.. feels really nice and really weird.
13:01:23 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
Wow! That's such weird weather…we're probably close to 70 here in Pittsburgh!
13:01:35 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
Totally weird weather in Upstate New York as well Ameet and Sarah.
13:01:53 From Leyla Cabugos (she/her or they/them) to Everyone:
We are finally getting a bit of rain in coastal CA
13:08:32 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
I'm confused on how to report the search results of grey literature. In Prisma 2020 do all those items fall into which box or should their be a separate Prisma for grey literature to help with transparency of search.
13:10:40 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
Which tools would you use in US context Carmen?
13:11:31 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
Usa.gov is powered by bing is for US, state, etc.
13:11:43 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
Science.gov
13:11:56 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
@Michelle I think the new PRISMA has a box for 'websites', 'organisations', but not 'grey literature' per se. I like the idea of a grey lit only flow diagram!
13:12:20 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
Homeland Security Digital Library is could for policy documents from Gov, IGOs, NGOs,
13:12:46 From Stephanie Ritchie to Everyone:
using .gov domain search in US would probably be recommended as well since bibliographic control of US government documents online is a bit of a mess.
13:13:10 From Stephanie Ritchie to Everyone:
It is improving with Public Access requirements coming into force.
13:13:48 From Stephanie Ritchie to Everyone:
Agency document repositories might be better sources for some subject areas.
13:14:42 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
+Stephanie, you can site:.gov, but USA.gov includes other domains used by government institutions such as .org, .com (think goarmy.com), .edu (grant and contract work).
13:15:59 From Debbie Chaves to Everyone:
I think Carleton University developed the custom Google search for Canadian government documents no longer exists:
https://library.carleton.ca/find/government-information/canada13:16:26 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
there are other US Federal search engines that would depend on the topic and the type of information desired.
13:16:47 From Hilary Kraus to Everyone:
This is an example of how to report grey lit in detail in a PRISMA flow diagram that came across the expert-searching listserv recently:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/PRISMA-flow-diagram-of-bibliographic-and-gray-literature-searches-SLR-overall-PRISMA_fig1_35242837313:17:02 From Leyla Cabugos (she/her or they/them) to Everyone:
Additional ways researchers have solicited input described in:
https://doi.org/10.1186/s13643-016-0337-y13:17:41 From Debbie Chaves to Everyone:
There may be difference between the Canadian and US government documents because US copyright allows the people to own the information where in Canada the information is owned by the Canadian governement
13:18:00 From Stephanie Ritchie to Everyone:
+Carmen, I agree USA.gov is a good source and does includes some of those non .gov domains but is not completely comprehensive... just suggesting using both.
13:18:25 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
@Debbie, good point about the copyright complication. :-)
13:19:18 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
@Rebecca-can you put a link to that in the chat?
13:19:21 From Rebecca Hedreen to Everyone:
https://www.qwant.com/13:19:26 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
Thanks!
13:19:28 From Debbie Chaves to Everyone:
I have used DataMiner to collect up citation data from a Google search into an Excel file. Avoids the - take the first 5 pages of search
13:20:03 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
In the future could we record the screen when we do searches and upload those files to OSF? As part of the reproducibility?
13:20:12 From Leyla Cabugos (she/her or they/them) to Everyone:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EQ5_DU1gE2msBwndLdZMXBWEZs8ocRb6gU12yPdhCSk/edit13:20:54 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
@Michelle-that's a great idea…I think I've seen some examples of people doing this…
13:21:07 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
Sorry if someone already said this, but when I want to be very specific in Google I use "verbatim" which does not seem work that same as the phrase search in the advance search.
13:21:19 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Michelle: Interesting thought. This would mean recording the final "cleaned up" version of the searching, rather than the exploratory messiness
13:21:32 From Debbie Chaves to Everyone:
Question - is MedRxiv considered grey literature? Such a terrible place to search and try and get stuff out of. But as a preprint server - is this grey or not?
13:21:49 From Paul Fehrmann to Everyone:
Recoding screen (screenshot) has anyone see examples …articles ??
13:21:49 From Hilary Kraus to Everyone:
It's my understanding preprint servers are considered grey lit
13:23:23 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
@Paul I think I've seen some talk about doing this…not sure if the screenshots were shared…would take some digging to find those examples!
13:23:28 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
34 hours
13:23:58 From Paul Fehrmann to Everyone:
@ Sarah…Thanks …
13:24:13 From Hilary Kraus to Everyone:
lol thanks, Zahra, my mental math was poor
13:24:48 From Hilary Kraus to Everyone:
Oh I definitely don't disagree, they should want to invest the time, I'm just thinking out loud about how they might react to seeing those numbers.
13:24:54 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
Again I think the time estimates are great for education, if you really want to do a systematic review..it might take this long. I love Cornell's flow chart for this idea and use it all the time with researchers.
13:26:46 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
https://www.library.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/SystematicReview_DecisionTreeMethodologies_v3.pdf13:27:19 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Should searching be easy and quick?
13:27:35 From Rebecca Hedreen to Everyone:
Should *good* searching be easy and quick?
13:27:51 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Yes! Thank you for that addition :)
13:28:10 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
@Zahra and Rebecca - great question!
13:29:22 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
I was absolutely thinking of graduate workers! Coming from a smaller institution, the lack of access to graduate students sometimes deters faculty from participating in systematic review etc
13:29:53 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
@ Leyla, I applaud the student's curiosity that lead to doing a scoping review!
13:30:31 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Hilary: I think it is great that numbers are shared. People who don't know how long it takes have this misconception that it is easy and quick. The more people share how long it takes, the more we normalize how much time and intellectual thought goes into doing "good" searching.
13:30:35 From Leyla Cabugos (she/her or they/them) to Everyone:
@Carmen, yes and their concept was really interesting
13:31:00 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Also, I wasn't critiquing what you said. It was an add on but using your last statement as the jumping off point
13:31:26 From Hilary Kraus to Everyone:
Absolutely, @Zahra! :)
13:31:36 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
It seems like Zotero would have been a more efficient method?
13:32:12 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Excellent point. How much of the time was searching, and how much time was for data management?
13:33:33 From Rebecca Hedreen to Everyone:
Related to the question about Google Scholar vs. Google - we've been working on a long range campus author publication project and LOTS of our authors publish in things that don't show up in GS. Small journals, society publications, etc.
13:34:42 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
I really like the example shared in chat about doing grey lit separate and bringing it into the results at a later point of screening. So doing them separately.
13:35:19 From Paul Fehrmann to Everyone:
@Rebecca re: Scholar and Google...finding more with Google…yep..
13:35:58 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Librarians have many hills to die on ;)
13:36:14 From Stephanie Ritchie to Everyone:
@Zahra, haha
13:37:31 From Stephanie Ritchie to Everyone:
Thanks for the discussion all! I need to run. :)
13:42:49 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
I loved the boundary setting in this article!
13:42:53 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
added thoughts on tools for US context... in addition to ERIC, and PubMed, I would include AGRICOLA (all of which do show up in science.gov.)
13:42:57 From Hilary Kraus to Everyone:
+1 Michelle!
13:44:07 From Rebecca Hedreen to Everyone:
I'm pretty sure I've seen something about recruiting experts or soliciting document suggestions via snowballing.
13:44:38 From Leyla Cabugos (she/her or they/them) to Everyone:
Grey Literature - Searching the Literature: A Guide to Comprehensive Searching in the Health Sciences - Research guides at University of Toronto (utoronto.ca)
13:44:52 From Leyla Cabugos (she/her or they/them) to Everyone:
https://guides.library.utoronto.ca/c.php?g=577919&p=4123572#s-lg-box-1581020813:45:39 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
It can work, but seems tedious
13:46:40 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Which discipline?
13:46:48 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
@Leyla, thanks for sharing the utoronto.ca libguide.
13:48:29 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Agreed!
13:49:06 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
With grey literature it is not only discipline but I think about which countries does the team need to pull from. If it is not US, after today I might suggest adding a librarian from that country to help with nuisances with grey lit.
13:50:11 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
You could have been search results using a google specific domain search within a website than using the search tool within the website. :-)
13:50:53 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
Oh-that's a good point Carmen…so that's probably what they did?
13:50:57 From Debbie Chaves to Everyone:
I have to run. Wonderful conversation. Thank you to everyone.
13:51:00 From Carmen Orth-Alfie to Everyone:
Oops typos: "You could have "better" search results using a google specific domain search within a website than using the search tool within the website. :-)
13:51:20 From Samantha Dannick (she/her) to Everyone:
@Michelle I think that's a good idea! Makes me also think about how with grey lit there might be more risk of losing material if relying on English-language publication since there's potentially more local control than scholarly publications
13:51:26 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Like for the Campbell or Cochrane SRs, I think it would be nice to have
13:51:45 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
@Zahra, you made me laugh. I love these deep dives with other librarians, but getting my researchers to just understand the basics is where I spend most of my time. Both conducting SRs and evaluating them.
13:51:55 From janeyat to Everyone:
Off topic: today I had a grad student send ME a copy of Arksey & O'Malley because she wants to do a scoping review!
13:53:41 From Sarah Young (she/her) to Everyone:
https://forms.gle/LHsE9adttBERvuyo713:53:46 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Jane: Haha!! I've had that too.
13:54:08 From Michelle Price she/her to Everyone:
If the show and tell was recorded I would love to be able to share with my staff and super users at my institution.
13:54:29 From Zahra (she/her) to Everyone:
Asking permission first of course
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Sarah Young
Liaison Librarian
Carnegie Mellon University
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