RDA-L

So, let's give the new RDA-L a try...!

With the now official Toolkit, I'm often not sure whether things which I find odd are intentional or simply mistakes.  At present, I'm exceedingly puzzled by the elements other title information and parallel other title information. In the original Toolkit, both were presented as subordinate to title. See 2.3.1.1 where it says „For the purpose of resource description, titles are categorized as follows: ...". The list which follows includes title proper, parallel title proper, other title information and parallel other title information.

But in the official Toolkit, other title information and parallel title information are not shown as subelements of title of manifestation: Neither does the list at 73.88.03.17 include these elements, nor are they given as narrower elements at the bottom of the page for title of manifestation.  I cannot see any reason why other title information should no longer be seen as a kind of title information. So why is it now presented as something completely separate?

And there is another odd thing: If we look at the page for other title information, the only related element is parallel other title information, which is given as a narrower element. Again, I don't understand: To my mind, these are disjunct classes. Either something is classified as other title information or it is classified as parallel other title information.

I just checked: The same situation applies to title proper, where parallel title proper is given as a narrower element. But I'd argue that you cannot have title proper mean two different things at the same time. Either it is a broad element which covers both what we traditionally call title proper and parallel title proper, or it is on a narrower level and makes a clear distinction between title proper and parallel title proper. I think you cannot have it both ways.

Of course we can imagine an application which simply doesn't want to make the distinction between title proper and parallel title proper.  That's fine, but in this case I think that one needs to go one level up and use the broader element title of manifestation (or maybe use manifestation title and responsibility statement).

I feel my head starting to spin again. And I'm not really sure whether I was able to make myself clear... could you follow my train of thoughts? And if so, what do you think? Is there a very good reason for this which I was only to dumb to grasp?

Heidrun


------------------------------
--
---------------------
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
------------------------------

Heidrun, I could follow your thoughts.  And I think it's a good question.  With a quick look, it does seem to me that all of those should be narrower elements of title of manifestation.  Perhaps further thought or someone else's perspective will give another answer, but it's a good question to raise.

------------------------------
Stephen McDonald
Digital Initiatives Librarian
Tufts University
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 25, 2021 01:19 PM
From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

So, let's give the new RDA-L a try...!

With the now official Toolkit, I'm often not sure whether things which I find odd are intentional or simply mistakes.  At present, I'm exceedingly puzzled by the elements other title information and parallel other title information. In the original Toolkit, both were presented as subordinate to title. See 2.3.1.1 where it says „For the purpose of resource description, titles are categorized as follows: ...". The list which follows includes title proper, parallel title proper, other title information and parallel other title information.

But in the official Toolkit, other title information and parallel title information are not shown as subelements of title of manifestation: Neither does the list at 73.88.03.17 include these elements, nor are they given as narrower elements at the bottom of the page for title of manifestation.  I cannot see any reason why other title information should no longer be seen as a kind of title information. So why is it now presented as something completely separate?

And there is another odd thing: If we look at the page for other title information, the only related element is parallel other title information, which is given as a narrower element. Again, I don't understand: To my mind, these are disjunct classes. Either something is classified as other title information or it is classified as parallel other title information.

I just checked: The same situation applies to title proper, where parallel title proper is given as a narrower element. But I'd argue that you cannot have title proper mean two different things at the same time. Either it is a broad element which covers both what we traditionally call title proper and parallel title proper, or it is on a narrower level and makes a clear distinction between title proper and parallel title proper. I think you cannot have it both ways.

Of course we can imagine an application which simply doesn't want to make the distinction between title proper and parallel title proper.  That's fine, but in this case I think that one needs to go one level up and use the broader element title of manifestation (or maybe use manifestation title and responsibility statement).

I feel my head starting to spin again. And I'm not really sure whether I was able to make myself clear... could you follow my train of thoughts? And if so, what do you think? Is there a very good reason for this which I was only to dumb to grasp?

Heidrun


------------------------------
--
---------------------
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/25/2021 3:08:00 PM
From: Stephen McDonald
Subject: RE: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

Heidrun, I could follow your thoughts.  And I think it's a good question.  With a quick look, it does seem to me that all of those should be narrower elements of title of manifestation.  Perhaps further thought or someone else's perspective will give another answer, but it's a good question to raise.

------------------------------
Stephen McDonald
Digital Initiatives Librarian
Tufts University
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 25, 2021 01:19 PM
From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

So, let's give the new RDA-L a try...!

With the now official Toolkit, I'm often not sure whether things which I find odd are intentional or simply mistakes.  At present, I'm exceedingly puzzled by the elements other title information and parallel other title information. In the original Toolkit, both were presented as subordinate to title. See 2.3.1.1 where it says „For the purpose of resource description, titles are categorized as follows: ...". The list which follows includes title proper, parallel title proper, other title information and parallel other title information.

But in the official Toolkit, other title information and parallel title information are not shown as subelements of title of manifestation: Neither does the list at 73.88.03.17 include these elements, nor are they given as narrower elements at the bottom of the page for title of manifestation.  I cannot see any reason why other title information should no longer be seen as a kind of title information. So why is it now presented as something completely separate?

And there is another odd thing: If we look at the page for other title information, the only related element is parallel other title information, which is given as a narrower element. Again, I don't understand: To my mind, these are disjunct classes. Either something is classified as other title information or it is classified as parallel other title information.

I just checked: The same situation applies to title proper, where parallel title proper is given as a narrower element. But I'd argue that you cannot have title proper mean two different things at the same time. Either it is a broad element which covers both what we traditionally call title proper and parallel title proper, or it is on a narrower level and makes a clear distinction between title proper and parallel title proper. I think you cannot have it both ways.

Of course we can imagine an application which simply doesn't want to make the distinction between title proper and parallel title proper.  That's fine, but in this case I think that one needs to go one level up and use the broader element title of manifestation (or maybe use manifestation title and responsibility statement).

I feel my head starting to spin again. And I'm not really sure whether I was able to make myself clear... could you follow my train of thoughts? And if so, what do you think? Is there a very good reason for this which I was only to dumb to grasp?

Heidrun


------------------------------
--
---------------------
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
------------------------------

Stephen,

Thanks for the input, but I don't think this does the trick.

The new manifestation statements are a separate, alternative way of recording certain information. Instead of using the granular elements which we're all used to, we can now transcribe the whole thing as an undifferentiated chunk. But this doesn't mean that title proper, other title information and statement of responsibility are components of the element manifestation title and responsibility statement.  Compare the presentation of the publication statement, which *is* made up of three components called "subelements "(36.03.73.72)  - this looks completely different.

But it is important to note that the options which you quoted are placed under the heading "Precording". These options tell you that instead of using the chunky element manifestation title and responsibility statement you might choose to use the old-fashioned granular elements.

Heidrun

------------------------------
Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Stuttgart Media University
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 26, 2021 12:51 PM
From: Stephen Hearn
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

The manifestation statement element Manifestation: manifestation title and responsibility statement  appears to have replaced "title of manifestation" from the original toolkit as the broader categorical term. The option is given to record "title of manifestation," "title proper" and "other title information" as separate elements when they are included in a "manifestation title and responsibility statement." In this reading, they're considered distinct components rather than subelements of the manifestation statement.

The element "title proper" does appear to be naming both a category of title and an instance of that category, i.e., "the title of manifestation that is selected for preference in a specific application or context."  "Parallel title proper" would be a subelement of the category but not of the instance. It might be clearer to have "preferred title proper" and "parallel title proper" as subelements of "title proper."

Stephen

--

Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist

Data Management & Access, University Libraries

University of Minnesota

170A Wilson Library (office)

160 Wilson Library (mail)

309 19th Avenue South

Minneapolis, MN 55455

Ph: 612-625-2328

Fx: 612-625-3428

ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242

Original Message:
Sent: 1/25/2021 3:08:00 PM
From: Stephen McDonald
Subject: RE: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

Heidrun, I could follow your thoughts.  And I think it's a good question.  With a quick look, it does seem to me that all of those should be narrower elements of title of manifestation.  Perhaps further thought or someone else's perspective will give another answer, but it's a good question to raise.

------------------------------
Stephen McDonald
Digital Initiatives Librarian
Tufts University

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 25, 2021 01:19 PM
From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

So, let's give the new RDA-L a try...!

With the now official Toolkit, I'm often not sure whether things which I find odd are intentional or simply mistakes.  At present, I'm exceedingly puzzled by the elements other title information and parallel other title information. In the original Toolkit, both were presented as subordinate to title. See 2.3.1.1 where it says „For the purpose of resource description, titles are categorized as follows: ...". The list which follows includes title proper, parallel title proper, other title information and parallel other title information.

But in the official Toolkit, other title information and parallel title information are not shown as subelements of title of manifestation: Neither does the list at 73.88.03.17 include these elements, nor are they given as narrower elements at the bottom of the page for title of manifestation.  I cannot see any reason why other title information should no longer be seen as a kind of title information. So why is it now presented as something completely separate?

And there is another odd thing: If we look at the page for other title information, the only related element is parallel other title information, which is given as a narrower element. Again, I don't understand: To my mind, these are disjunct classes. Either something is classified as other title information or it is classified as parallel other title information.

I just checked: The same situation applies to title proper, where parallel title proper is given as a narrower element. But I'd argue that you cannot have title proper mean two different things at the same time. Either it is a broad element which covers both what we traditionally call title proper and parallel title proper, or it is on a narrower level and makes a clear distinction between title proper and parallel title proper. I think you cannot have it both ways.

Of course we can imagine an application which simply doesn't want to make the distinction between title proper and parallel title proper.  That's fine, but in this case I think that one needs to go one level up and use the broader element title of manifestation (or maybe use manifestation title and responsibility statement).

I feel my head starting to spin again. And I'm not really sure whether I was able to make myself clear... could you follow my train of thoughts? And if so, what do you think? Is there a very good reason for this which I was only to dumb to grasp?

Heidrun


------------------------------
--
---------------------
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
------------------------------

Postscript:

I agree that your suggestion of distinguishing between  "preferred title proper" and "parallel title proper" would solve one of the problems.

Also, I find we need to be very careful with our wording: On the one hand, the official Toolkit uses the term "narrower element", e.g. place of manifestation has the narrower element place of publication. On the other hand, it talks about "subelements" (i.e. components), e.g. publication statement has the subelements  place of publication, name of publisher and date of publication. So in the one case it is a hierarchy and in the other it is a part-whole relationship.  This is really tricky.

Heidrun





------------------------------
Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Stuttgart Media University
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 26, 2021 02:06 PM
From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

Stephen,

Thanks for the input, but I don't think this does the trick.

The new manifestation statements are a separate, alternative way of recording certain information. Instead of using the granular elements which we're all used to, we can now transcribe the whole thing as an undifferentiated chunk. But this doesn't mean that title proper, other title information and statement of responsibility are components of the element manifestation title and responsibility statement.  Compare the presentation of the publication statement, which *is* made up of three components called "subelements "(36.03.73.72)  - this looks completely different.

But it is important to note that the options which you quoted are placed under the heading "Precording". These options tell you that instead of using the chunky element manifestation title and responsibility statement you might choose to use the old-fashioned granular elements.

Heidrun

------------------------------
Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Stuttgart Media University

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 26, 2021 12:51 PM
From: Stephen Hearn
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

The manifestation statement element Manifestation: manifestation title and responsibility statement  appears to have replaced "title of manifestation" from the original toolkit as the broader categorical term. The option is given to record "title of manifestation," "title proper" and "other title information" as separate elements when they are included in a "manifestation title and responsibility statement." In this reading, they're considered distinct components rather than subelements of the manifestation statement.

The element "title proper" does appear to be naming both a category of title and an instance of that category, i.e., "the title of manifestation that is selected for preference in a specific application or context."  "Parallel title proper" would be a subelement of the category but not of the instance. It might be clearer to have "preferred title proper" and "parallel title proper" as subelements of "title proper."

Stephen

--

Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist

Data Management & Access, University Libraries

University of Minnesota

170A Wilson Library (office)

160 Wilson Library (mail)

309 19th Avenue South

Minneapolis, MN 55455

Ph: 612-625-2328

Fx: 612-625-3428

ORCID:  0000-0002-3590-1242

Original Message:
Sent: 1/25/2021 3:08:00 PM
From: Stephen McDonald
Subject: RE: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

Heidrun, I could follow your thoughts.  And I think it's a good question.  With a quick look, it does seem to me that all of those should be narrower elements of title of manifestation.  Perhaps further thought or someone else's perspective will give another answer, but it's a good question to raise.

------------------------------
Stephen McDonald
Digital Initiatives Librarian
Tufts University

Original Message:
Sent: Jan 25, 2021 01:19 PM
From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller
Subject: Other title information and more in the official Toolkit

So, let's give the new RDA-L a try...!

With the now official Toolkit, I'm often not sure whether things which I find odd are intentional or simply mistakes.  At present, I'm exceedingly puzzled by the elements other title information and parallel other title information. In the original Toolkit, both were presented as subordinate to title. See 2.3.1.1 where it says „For the purpose of resource description, titles are categorized as follows: ...". The list which follows includes title proper, parallel title proper, other title information and parallel other title information.

But in the official Toolkit, other title information and parallel title information are not shown as subelements of title of manifestation: Neither does the list at 73.88.03.17 include these elements, nor are they given as narrower elements at the bottom of the page for title of manifestation.  I cannot see any reason why other title information should no longer be seen as a kind of title information. So why is it now presented as something completely separate?

And there is another odd thing: If we look at the page for other title information, the only related element is parallel other title information, which is given as a narrower element. Again, I don't understand: To my mind, these are disjunct classes. Either something is classified as other title information or it is classified as parallel other title information.

I just checked: The same situation applies to title proper, where parallel title proper is given as a narrower element. But I'd argue that you cannot have title proper mean two different things at the same time. Either it is a broad element which covers both what we traditionally call title proper and parallel title proper, or it is on a narrower level and makes a clear distinction between title proper and parallel title proper. I think you cannot have it both ways.

Of course we can imagine an application which simply doesn't want to make the distinction between title proper and parallel title proper.  That's fine, but in this case I think that one needs to go one level up and use the broader element title of manifestation (or maybe use manifestation title and responsibility statement).

I feel my head starting to spin again. And I'm not really sure whether I was able to make myself clear... could you follow my train of thoughts? And if so, what do you think? Is there a very good reason for this which I was only to dumb to grasp?

Heidrun


------------------------------
--
---------------------
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Nobelstrasse 10, 70569 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
------------------------------